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Interviews by Amy Evans.
This project was produced in conjunction with the Smithsonian's
traveling exhibit "Key Ingredients"
and
is sponsored by the
Mississippi Humanities Council,
the
Yoknapatawpha Arts Council,
the Southern Foodways Alliance, and
the Lafayette County City of
Oxford Public Library
B & B Cafe
Oxford
MS
1920s-late 1960s/early 1970s
[W]e [would go] there [to the B & B Cafe] several times, you know, on different occasions... I never shall forget a man -- I forget his name. I sure hate I forget. But he was the one who... if you'd tell him your... birthday, he could tell you what day [of the week] it was... He was just a fortune teller. -- Susie Marshall
Photographer Martin J. Dain visited Oxford in the early 1960s to document William Faulkner's fabled Yoknapatawpha County. With many days spent wandering and photographing, Dain eventually stumbled upon the African-American-owned B & B Cafe that was tucked away in an alley on the northwest side of the town's square. Luckily, he snapped a few photographs while he was there. The picture here is one of the very few -- if not the only -- known images of the place. While long gone, the cafe is still part of the collective memory, and there are many locals who are quick to share their stories. Here, Mrs. Susie Marshall recounts tales of fortune tellers, fried pies and an Oxford that has all but disappeared.
Visit this website for more information on African-American history in Oxford, Mississippi.
What
follows is a portion of the original interview that has been edited for
length. To download the entire transcript in PDF form, please
click this link. (Adobe Acrobat Reader required)
Subject: Susie Marshall, Freedmen's Town
Historian Date: August 24, 2004 @ 10:30am
Location: Mrs. Marshall's home -- Oxford, MS
Interviewer: Amy Evans
Amy Evans: This is Amy Evans on Tuesday, August twenty-fourth, two thousand and four. And I'm at the home of Mrs. Susie Marshall in Oxford, Mississippi, on Martin Luther King Junior Drive. And Mrs. Marshall, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself for the record?
Susie Marshall: I'm Susie Marshall. Um, my birthday is December twenty-fourth, nineteen thirteen. I had my ninetieth -- observed my ninetieth birthday Christmas Eve... two thousand three!
------
Before, I mentioned that we were going to talk about African-American... cafes in Oxford
Yeah!
And I wonder if we could start specifically with the B and B Café. Um --
The B and B.
Yeah.
And Robert Boles... who had the shoe shop?
Yeah! I tell you, that wasn't called -- I think the person who owned that cafe at t hat time was, uh, the first grade teacher, Lela Peterson's husband. It was called Pete's. He was called Pete. P-E-T-E. ------
So are you saying that they were the first owners... that had the cafe?
Um-hmm. You see, it was a -- like you say, it was, uh, in front of -- right there where Boles -- I think they must own it -- where --
Mr. Wiley is there now. Wiley's shoe shop.
Yeah, well, uh, Wiley's in the back now... Well, I think Peterson owned the front part... Well, it was the back part. It really was. Because the show shop was in the front part... And, uh, after Peterson, I guess, died, a young man called Butch. Butch Morgan... was the next owner... Yeah, I never shall forget for -- when we were coming up, you know our parents didn't allow us to socialize much and to -- going to places like that. They were real strict. But we remember go -- going there several times, you know, on different occasions. Like when we have a club meeting or something, we'd meet there. I never shall forget a man -- I forget his name. I sure hate I forget. But he was the one who could tell when your -- if you'd tell him your -- your birthday, he could tell you what date, uh, what date in the day it was. I for got now. He was just a fortune teller.
Oh, well I -- let me show you this. I've heard that before. And I have these pictures. Martin J. Dain came to Oxford... in the early [nineteen] sixties.
Yes.
And he did that book Faulkner's World. And I have these pictures from that book. I wonder if -- if this is who you're talking about [interviewer gets Dain photograph out of folder and places it in front of Mrs. Marshall. There is a man in the photograph, wearing a tattered sweater with newspapers in the pockets, and he is leaning against the counter of the cafe reading a magazine].
It surely is!
Because
John Adams at the S and J Frame Shop [in Oxford]... told me that, um,
people who have mentioned knowing or interacting with this man in this
photograph, say that he was like a mathematician and could --
Right! Sure!
-- do any kind of [math] problem.
Um-hmm, he could. And it was just amazing. And we would go there when we would have our parties. This sure is the place! The cafe.
Yeah? And is that Butch [Morgan] right there? [There is a man seated in a booth on the right side of the image, who is wearing a paper hat and smoking a cigarette]
That's Butch right there. Butch Morgan. Mmmm! I'm so glad you showed that. You say his name was -- what? I've forgotten his name. [Pointing to the man reading and leaning against the counter in the photograph]
I don't know his name.
I can't remember his name. As well as we, uh, used to -- well, he used to be sitting on the -- not only in the cafes but in the street corners and it -- all -- all the... places around town. And we would always enjoy stopping and visiting with him because he could tell us so many things, you know?
Yeah? So you'd ask -- you'd tell him your birthdate, and he would tell you what day of the week --
Yeah! Yeah, what day of the week. I -- you know, that was something. [Laughs]... I thought it was amazing. [Laughing]
[Laughing] Well let me ask you about, um, the cafe a little bit more and try and get an idea of when it was operational and who had it. Because -- do you remember it being here when you moved here as a child?
Well, I was eight years old. [Short pause] And I think I do remember it on the -- being there on the corner. [Short pause] because on the, uh, also on that -- in that same areas we had a -- my friend's grandparents were -- had a cleaners. Um-hmm. And who else -- yeah, a cleaners. It sure was a cleaners. And then after that a Chinese, uh, m -- one of the, uh, church members worked for a Chinaman. He had a t -- the cleaners after the black people died. Because that's been a long time ago... I don't remember -- every time -- we came -- when we moved to town in nineteen twenty-four... On to nineteen-thirty and they -- yes, I remember the street mostly was just area of nothing but small houses and chicken coops and animals and all. [Short laugh] In the early nineteenth century that's how it looked until nineteen seventy-four. The city got a grant, you know, and they refurbished this area.
------
Well and so what was the rest of the -- the square like when you were growing up in the -- here in the twenties and thirties and --
Well, you know, it had hitching posts around -- around the square, where they would come and -- people from the country would bring their vegetables and they'd have a -- sell whatever they had. And the hitching -- that, uh -- hitched their mules and horses around the square. And it seems like every -- every occasion -- maybe every year -- they would have something like a -- a giveaway. Like a car or something. You know, something big. And there would be a lot of people around town... During that time. And, uh, I remember when the square was -- well, when they had plank walks from the square down to -- down to this train station. The depot. Plank walks.
Like wooden walkways?
Yeah, [to] walk on. And that -- the ex-slaves, they built -- built those plank walks from the square down to the post office because -- or right after -- my grandfather said after freedom was declared, they, uh, could get money, you know. They -- they were paid money to work, and they built those plank walks.
------
What was that period like when you were here in [nineteen] sixty-two, when James Meredith came [to Ole Miss]?
Well, it was, you know, um [short pause] Never shall forget. A caravan of soldiers came right along [points towards the front of her house and the street outside]. And you know, the street was -- wasn't paced then. Nineteen -- nineteen sixty-two. And, uh, went to church that Sunday night. Because I think this was like, uh, early Sunday morning. I -- I think it was. And we went to church that Sunday night and after -- we heard all this noise. And we didn't know what was going to happen. So the preacher at our church, he said -- it was about seven thirty, and he let church out. Because that's -- that incident had taken place on, uh, the campus because of Meredith had -- was there to be, uh, to be entered into school. To be registered for school the next morning. And it was just really something. We -- I was teaching in -- at Taylor at that time. And, uh, we couldn't go to school, you know. They -- the marshals -- well, the govern -- government, I guess, had taken over -- control of the govern -- city government. And, uh, [it was] about a week before we could go to school.
What was going on in this community of Freedmen's Town, being so close to campus?
Well, everybody was -- stayed close at home [short pause] during -- at that period... The -- the maids that worked for the white folk, they would have to come and get them. And they -- you couldn't go through campus. I mean, the city part. They'd have to go around, you know, to get the people. Because it was just really controlled by the federal government.
Well and Butch Morgan's cafe was open in [nineteen] sixty-two because that' about, um -- I think just before the James Meredith... integration of Ole Miss happened, that these [Martin J. Dain] pictures were taken.
Um-hmm. Right. Um-hmm.
[D]o have any memory of whether or not Butch's cafe stayed open during that time or if people... would meet there?
SM: No. It... it didn't -- it wasn't open... The town was really just shut down... It was just a scary time for black folk. White folk too! [Laughs]
------
[W]ell if you don't mind, can we back up and talk about, um, the cafe again and --
Yeah. The b -- Butch's cafe. And we had another man. He was a really rough black nigger. White folk were kind of scared of him, you know. Afraid of him. His name -- Henry Logan. Boy, he was rough. He had a cafe... He had a cafe and a barbershop combined. I've forgotten now where it is. Over there where [short pause] mm, mm. In the gin area. You know where the old gin is?
Yes, ma'am.
I think he had a cafe and a, uh, and a barbershop.
Do you remember what kind of cafe it was?
It was just a corner -- he sold sandwiches, you know. Not very big. It wasn't like -- big like the Pete [Cafe or B & B]. He just sold sandwiches. Had somebody working in -- in the back, I believe. And he -- he'd have in the front -- it was very small. Just a... sandwich place.
Do you know about what years it was there?
Let me see, what year was that there? [Short pause] His -- his daughter -- maybe about [nineteen] thirty-three... And then there was one down -- called in Shirley Bar -- Barker -- Shirley Barker hollow. That was down in here near the railroad track. It was -- I forget the name of the person who had the cafe. [Mrs. Marshall later explained that a white woman named Shirley Barker owned the land in that area, and that there was a place down a hill that was run by someone in the black community] But they used to have dances over there in -- in that -- and that was a kind of big place... In Shirley Barker hollow. I forgot the name of the person who had the cafe. That big -- because it was kind of like a dance hall, you know... And they had -- they sold food there.
Did they have church dances or school dances?
They'd have [laughs] what you call them? [Laughs] Juke dances!
Oh, yeah? Okay.
[Laughing] Yeah, because even at Christmastime, you know, they'd have Christmas dance after Christmas dance, and all those special days, they would have dances.
------
Well and you were talking about the square earlier and, um, spending time down there. And I wonder -- I wonder with the cafe that was there in the, um, Boles' shoe shop building, Butch Morgan's cafe, and what it was like for an African-American business to be on the square for those many years during that time. From the thirties to the sixties. [Short pause] And how -- what kind of interactions occurred with people --
Not very much, you know. Only the black folks would go to the places. No white. Um-mm. Not even the students, you know.
And that cafe was on that alley right there -- [on the northwest side of the square] Was that a big hangout place? In the alley?
It surely was. A big hangout for African-Americans. Sure was. Um-hmm. You could always find whoever you wanted right in there. Right there. If they were being -- looked for you -- you know, when people who come from out of town. Their relatives or whatever. Because a lot of people moved, uh, from -- from around the area, you know. Because of, um, uh, taxes and -- -- get to go. You know during that time, they'd all try to go to Chicago or someplace like that where they thought they would have a better living? You know?... But when they got there, they found out it wasn't any better. [Short laugh] [Not] much better, anyway.
Do you remember what this cafe -- Butch's cafe -- looked like on the outside? Was there a sign in the alley or anything for it?
Um-hmm, there was a sign: "Butch's Cafe." Or "Pete's Cafe."... That's as far back as I can remember -- Pete. And then Wiley. [Herbert Wiley now owns the building. His family bought the shoe shop business from Robert Boles. Today, however, the shoe shop is in the back and a bar is in the front of the property]
Do you ever remember it being called the B and B Cafe? Because that's the way I've always heard it spoken of... From what I understand, um, it was --
Butch [Morgan] and --
The daughters, I think, of... Mr. Boles -- I'm not sure... And they started the cafe, and then the Peterson's owned it, and then Butch Morgan owned it.
Yeah, maybe so. Yeah. Let me see. The daughters --
Do you -- I found these notes in my notebook here. Do you remember the names Shirley and Shelby Boles?
Oh, yes!
Does that sound familiar?
That's the -- Shirley -- Shirley -- must have been his daughter. Shirley and Shelby, that's the son.
Oh, okay. Because I spoke with Mr. [Herbert] Wiley briefly one day, and he just mentioned all of these names [as] kind of a short... lineage of the cafe. [Mr. Wiley did not want to be interviewed]... And so then, that was how it was explained to me, that they started the cafe, and then the Petersons owned it and.. .Butch Morgan.
Right. That's probably right.
And was it just a -- a short-order kind of sandwich place?
Yeah. A short-order sandwich place. Um-hmm. As far as I can remember.
Um, and these pictures. [Interviewer puts the Dain photographs of the cafe in front of Mrs. Marshall again] Do you know anyone in this photograph? [This is a different photograph of the cafe that is a different view of the wall of booths and customers. The counter and the man reading the newspaper is in this image again but from the opposite side]
I sure do remember this man. [Points to the mathematician reading at the counter]... Let me see... Lord, I don't know these folks! [Laughs]
[Laughs] And there -- there's a -- looks like a jukebox in the back of those pictures there?
Yeah, a jukebox. Um-hmm.
Did you ever stop in there for just a soda or a candy or anything? [In the Dain photograph that shows Butch Morgan seated in a booth, a jar of candy and crates of empty soda bottles can be seen behind the counter in the back left of the image]
We stopped in there for a soda or sandwich for a short while. [Laughs]
------
Well, were [all of the African-America-owned cafes] just kind of quick take-away places or like little stores with candy and sandwiches and nothing really more than that?
Through -- through the week. And then on the -- on -- they would have, uh, big crowds on the weekends. Saturday nights. Because I remember somebody got killed down in Shirley Barker [hollow]. A friend. He was having a -- a dance.[Short pause] And, uh, Mr. Boles didn't allow nobody -- I mean Mr., um, Logan didn't allow no -- no, uh, violence around his place. He took care of his business himself. [Short laugh]... The policemen didn't have to. He -- he was about -- about as bad as, um, Molly Barr!... Shewould have picnics and things where -- and -- and the police men would ask her if she needed help, and she said, "No." She had her gun across her lap, and she took care of her business! [Laughs]
------
Well I sure do thank you, Mrs. Marshall[.]
Oh, you're welcome. I enjoyed... doing it... You made me think of a lot of things... I had forgotten.
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