FLORIDA’S FORGOTTON COAST: LIFE ON THE APALACHICOLA BAY
WORKING THE BAY
Melaine Cooper Covell
James Hicks
Monette Hicks
Monica Lemieux
Carl McCaplan
James & Betty McNeill
Charles & Rex Pennycuff
A. L. Quick
Henry Tindell

TOOLS OF THE TRADE
Wes Birdsong
Corky Richards
Bobby Shiver
Charles Thompson
Genaro “Jiggs” Zingarelli

PROCESSING THE CATCH
Terry Dean
Grady Leavins
Lynn Martina
Fred Millender
Janice Richards
Anthony Taranto
Tommy Ward

THE SWEET SIDE
Donald Smiley
George Watkins

VINTAGE APALACH
Seafood & Honey

WHERE TO EAT
Apalach Eateries

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Interviews & photographs by Amy Evans

This project sponsored by the St. Joe Company.

Originally from Tennessee, Charles Pennycuff’s parents moved their family to Eastpoint in 1971. Since Charles first saw the bay at the age of seventeen, he has made his living from it. Over the years, Charles has done it all. He has shrimped, oystered, crabbed, and even grunted for worms. His son, Rex, worked the bay, too. Like a lot of folks, though, they wanted something more reliable. In 1993 Charles opened Fisherman’s Choice Bait & Tackle in Eastpoint. He has no employees, only his family. From this modest storefront, every fisherman, hunter, and seafood worker can get what he or she needs. From crickets to rubber boots, fishing poles to dog food, they’ve got it. And the nature of this kind of business is that it’s the center of all things bay-related. Locals stop in for bait, friends stop in to chat, and strangers get tips on good fishing holes. Even though the Pennycuffs don’t get on a boat to go to work anymore, they are still very much connected to the bay.

Listen to this 3-minute audio clip of Rex Pennycuff talking about the employment choices he faced as a young person living on the Apalachicola Bay.
[Windows Media Player required. Go here to download the player for free.]

What follows is a portion of the original interview that has been edited for length. To download the entire transcript in PDF form, please click here.

Subject: Charles & Rex Pennycuff – Owners, Fisherman’s Choice
Date: January 12, 2006
Location: Fisherman’s Choice – Eastpoint, FL
Interviewer: Amy Evans

Amy Evans:  This is Amy Evans for the Southern Foodways Alliance on Thursday, January 12th, 2006. I'm in Eastpoint, Florida, with Mr. Charles Pennycuff at Fisherman's Choice Bait and Tackle. Mr. Pennycuff, would you mind saying your name and also your birth date, if you don't, mind for the record?

Charles Pennycuff:  Charles Pennycuff, my birth date is one, twenty-seven, fifty-four [January 27, 1954].

You're in the bait and tackle business now, but you used to oyster, correct?

I oystered, crabbed, fished, and shrimped.

Are you a native of Eastpoint?

About thirty-five years.

Where were you born?

In Jamestown, Tennessee.

When did you get down here [to Eastpoint, Florida]?

Moved here in 1971. I've been here thirty-five years.

What brought you down here?

Really, my wife. My mother knew my wife's mother and she said—we had nine children, so she said, “Lord,” she said, “You can put every one of them kids to work down there.” So we loaded up and come to Florida…The commercial seafood business, that's what we all were doing to start with is oystering.

So how did that happen? How did you get into the business and learn the trade and get the boat and all that?

We went to work the second day we was here. Went out on the boat and tonged oysters and culled them. Well, we actually culled them the first day, but we didn't know much about it. I went to work with what's now my brother-in-law and we caught—we were catching oysters, and they'd bring them in and shuck them.

So did you have your own equipment when you started, or were you borrowing stuff?

No, we went on another boat. It was actually a year [before] I bought a boat—a boat and a motor of my own and went to work.

And where did you get your boat?

I got it from Central Seafood, which is Fred Millender. And bought a brand new forty-horse[power] Evinrude in 1973, I think. I bought my own first boat and started out oystering. Bought our tongs from what, at the time, was Golden's Net Shop—Golden Marine Works. And we was in business…I remember what the motor cost; it was six, twenty-four—twenty-four dollars sales tax on top of six hundred dollars.

What would a motor cost now?

About thirty-six hundred dollars—thirty-two hundred to thirty-six hundred dollars. The same engine, thirty-five years later. About a hundred dollars a year, ain't it?

How about the skiff? How much did that cost you?

The skiff then was running six hundred dollars, and now a twenty-one-foot skiff runs—I build them for twenty-one hundred dollars. In the past, I built several oyster skiffs.

When did you start doing that?

[Nineteen] Seventy—I built—me and my brother-in-law built my first one in 1976. I built several oyster boats down through the years.

Did you start with a pattern or you knew what it looked like and you just went to building?

Well, it's just—we cut our plywood and bent it and it was just—every model was basically the same if you don't have patterns. We just cut it ahead—like building a house—just built it square twelve [feet] by twelve [feet], whatever.

And so you got into the business, more or less, of making boats on the side?

Well, I oystered, and I wanted another boat, and that's when I built—the first one was about [nineteen] seventy-two—latter part of seventy-two to seventy-three. And I got my own boat in seventy-two, and then I built my own one in seventy-six, and went and put—propelled it with, like I said, a forty-horse[power] Johnson at the time—Evinrude Johnson.

So tell me about your first time out oystering. Was there a big learning curve using the tongs or anything?

It was like a bunch of rocks, being a Tennessee boy. It was like a bunch of rocks clustered up. I couldn't tell what was oysters and what wasn't. Basically, it just looked like a big old pile of rocks they was piling on deck. And they finally learned us to separate them and showed us how it was. It just looked like going down the rock quarry myself seeing a bunch of rocks; that's all I can remember.

Can you tell me some stories about being out there on the water?

I've had some good times and I've had some bad times. We've caught—stories about being on the water? Let's see. Well, it just is normally oystering. Some days you'll go out like today, and it's foggy, and you'll see nobody all day long 'til you get back to the Hill [on land or to town].

Would you go out on a day like today?

Oh, yeah. I've been—I've left many a day—well not many, but several that you never see nobody 'til you get back home. Just take a compass and run a bearing, and you go wherever you want to. You can find the same little old cork you left yesterday or the same little old telephone pole out there. It ain't moved; you can go right back to it. Now you've got GPS [Global Positioning System], and you can find a nickel [with that]. But then it's just low—I mean compass—oh, yeah. We've worked many a nights in the storms and shrimped. But you have to work pretty well all the time in the weather, unless it's just sure enough rough.

That fog out there [today] is thick. You can't see twenty feet.

Well, sometimes—sometimes it gets so thick you can't see the person on the bow. You can see an imprint of a person, but you can't actually tell who they are, and they ain't like but twenty-foot away. That don't stop you going—like people out today.

I know you go out there and get as many oysters as you can, but is there a limit to how much a skiff can hold?

Well, yeah. We can put a hundred bushels on them. Seventy and a hundred bushes in the past, when we could catch whatever we could sell. Now they got a twenty bushel limit, with where if you ever gets twenty—but we have caught forty-five and fifty-five bushels by myself. And I've caught thirty-eight—I've yielded thirty-eight gallons of meat. My wife shucks most of them. My best day was thirty-eight gallons and five pints. That's a lot of meat.

Lot of oysters. [Laughs] And so your wife has shucked?

Yes. Yeah, she shucks—she was actually shucking when we got married.

What is your wife's name?

Lina.

So what did she think about coming down here and shucking?

Well when she moved here she was two years old when her parents moved. I was sixteen when I came. When we moved down here in [nineteen] seventy-one, I was sixteen. I had just turned seventeen.

So she grew up in it?

Yeah, she don't know no different. But like I said, I was sixteen years old when I moved here. And by her being fifteen, and she was already—they—she had been already shucking after school and on weekends a lot.

So you moved here when you were sixteen, and you say you started oystering the second day you were here?

The next day, yeah.  Went out on the boat with people; I went with Marion Millender and Larry Hatfield my first day oystering.

Did you like it when you started?

Well, it wasn't a lot of money, but I made ten dollars my first day. [Laughs] That's as much as I made in Tennessee. And, too, up there we sit a lot during the winter. There wasn't much to do—farmland. Usually, everything was still up there. But it wasn't long we was able to make thirty, thirty-five dollars a day after we got on our own.

——-

So when did you get out of it? What year was that, do you remember?

[Nineteen] ninety-three. I've played with it since, but I commercial fished all the way from [nineteen] seventy-two to ninety-three [twenty-one years]. I don't regret it; I enjoyed it and made good money and raised two kids.

So what, you turned straight from that to this place? The bait and tackle [business]?

Yes, I come off [the bay] and went [to] selling bait and tackle.

Was this place already open, or did you start it?

No, it was just a dilapidated old run down service station, and we bought it and decided we'd—they went and made the net ban in [nineteen] ninety-two [which made it unlawful to use entangling nets (i.e., gill and trammel) in Florida's waters], and we decided if we couldn't beat them we'd join them. So we decided we'd sell them bait. That's how I got in it.

How has your business grown over the years?

[To his son] What would you say, Rex? That's my son, Charles Rex Pennycuff.

Rex Pennycuff:  Well we probably increased twenty, twenty-five percent since we started up until last year. And then last year we actually probably went down twenty to twenty-five percent due to storms and Red Tide [which is a bloom of dinoflagellates that causes reddish discoloration of coastal ocean waters, which is often toxic and fatal to fish] and gas prices and—just wasn't much went right last year. The retail market here [at Fisherman’s Choice is] selling fresh shrimp, feed and different things—was unable to get the food when we needed it and when we could get it—it just wasn't any population to buy it. You know, so it just turned out not to be a real great year.

So is this one of the only bait shops in the area, or do you have some competition?

[This is] the only one in this town [of Eastpoint] that sells directly bait and tackle, and you got two on St. George Island and Apalach—one or two, Carrabelle—every town has got—but we still deal in fresh seafood.

So what kind of bait do you have here and where do you get it?

Well, we sell eating shrimp for fishing—they are eatable. I mean, they both are caught fresh daily, and we get out live shrimp—they come out of Keaton Beach for bait. Our local shrimp is caught here by the few shrimpers that are still in business. We've got some that was caught yesterday—beautiful eating shrimp and bait shrimp. Everybody classifies bait shrimp as bait shrimp, but there ain't no such thing. All shrimp is eatable, if they're fresh. We keep them ice-packed, whether they're eatable or fishable. And we have people [buy] twenty to fifty pounds and take them back to Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Indiana—wherever they're going back home. We'll pack them and process them full. We still handle the food products. We don't handle the oysters. The fish we usually buy if people wants them, but the fresh shrimp we still handle daily.

What kind of fish do you have coming through?

We get—what kind of fishing do we have? We have trout fishing, red fishing, sheep's head, and in the spring of the year we have—brim is excellent, bass fishing is good, and we have—catch several flounder, pompano, pretty well any kind of salt—we handle bait for fresh and saltwater product.

So you have local fisherman that bring in their catch to you to sell?

No, uh-uh. We don't deal in fresh—just a few mullet is all which we sell for bait and—we're not a full line retail, but we do handle mullet and shrimp, and we handle mullet for—we handle them and sell them for—eat or fish with and they use them for cut bait or either whole for shark bait, but we don't have no—no commercial guys that go get it for us.

[What] other baits [do] people use besides shrimp or mullet for cut bait?

We have worms, crickets, crappie minnows—all freshwater. Mostly your saltwater is either live shrimp, dead shrimp, mullet for cut bait, cigar minnows, squid and all that, which just about every bit of it is eatable. They do sell it in the fresh market state, but a lot of ours is frozen.

RP: One of the reasons we really hadn't got into a full line retail market for food is because of the season regulations and availability now of fish—just about have to sell frozen product to keep the fresh supply. Shrimp we do a pretty good job; you can pretty much keep them year-round here and Apalachicola. But with grouper and snapper, you know, the season is so erratic that you can't keep a fresh supply daily. You know and—and we just can't bring ourselves to tell the people that froze stuff is fresh because it's not. You know, if we tell you it's a fresh product, it's a fresh product and that—and a lot of regulations on oysters, so we haven't messed with oysters in the past for that reason. We're just not set up for it. That's sort of why we learn more toward bait and tackle than a full line of retail. And that's—that's just availability of product and being able to present what you can present fresh to the public.

Sure.

RP: It's imports and farm-raised product is seemingly taking a lot of the market for food consumption. Now you know, you pretty much—to handle it you have to have some sort of food preparation license. [You] have to keep real strict records, you know, so it's—it's a time-consuming process. And when you weigh out what you can make for the product to offer the public something at a good price, you just really can't do that with fresh market, and that's why most people has went to a froze market product which—and the sad thing is you—a process that protects the consumer is actually a process that actually, in return, hurts the consumer because it drives the prices up and also limits the availability of fresh market, you know. So it's—it don't really matter whichever you go, you know, somehow or another it's going to affect the consumer.

So have you grown up here in this bait and tackle place or have you—?

RP: I've oystered and shrimped…I've done a little bit of all of it but I've—done a couple years in college and was going for an education, had a [car] wreck, which changed [my] plans. Just a part of life. And since I've been here probably now the last eight years pretty much full-time and, you know, just—and happy doing what we're doing right now. The area is changing and the time is changing, and you don't know what the future holds for us. But in the past I've done oystering. I grew up oystering; it was a great summertime job and an evening job when I was going to high school. I could go out and make fifty, sixty dollars in the evening. Or one hundred dollars on the weekend, you know, and that was pretty good money for a sixteen year-old kid—junior or senior in high school—to have, you know, on a part-time job. And then, of course, when the storms come in, started regulating that out and it become tougher to do. When my father opened the store, you know, basically seafood was—it's a good life, but the restrictions started coming in and more government regulations and money is not stable and you really have—sometimes you do real good and sometimes you don't do much at all. So you got to really be able to budget, and I sort of elected to go a different path—something that's more stable and started, like I say, in education. And then now I've sort of switched avenues here into bait and tackle. And it has up and down times. And still, we're depending on the oystermen and shrimpers to get out. When they're down, you suffer. But we've managed to work a multi-faceted business together, so usually something will sustain you when everything else is down. You know—but so when it's all said and done, it's a little more stable than oystering or shrimping—something like that that's really depending on weather. And basically any—any environmental element or government element that may come by.

Had you been able to stay with the school and the education degree, would you have come back to Eastpoint, you think?

RP: Yeah, I would have been in Eastpoint. I'd—I'd have grew up in Eastpoint or Franklin County area, planning on continuing to live there for a while. A lot of changes to the area and don't really know if ten or fifteen years from now I'll feel the same way. And then again, I may. It's—it's what I've known, so I'm sort of reluctant to change. [Laughs]

——-

[To Charles]  So what do you think about your son staying here at the Bait and Tackle with you?

CP: Well it's good and he—I mean, he helped us out, and it takes a lot of pressure off. We—we work as a team…But we work well; me and him and his momma and my daughter runs it. We work seven days a week.

So tell me a little bit about what you have here and what a general day is like.

We have probably any sized rod and reel you'd look for—for deep-sea fishing to right on down to a crappie, crawfish—cycle-8, whatever you want to call it—speckled perch to a brim. Any kind of plug for fresh and saltwater. We have live bait. The live bait consists of shrimp for saltwater, crappy minnows and bass shiners for freshwater, earthworms, wigglers and crickets for freshwater fishing. We're just a full line bait and tackle. We also handle feed—livestock feed and hunting dogs—dog food for most of the hunters. We've got roughly a couple hundred hunters in the [Franklin] County that still hunts and runs dogs.

What are they hunting for?

Deer—deer hunting and a few hog hunters left. A few still hunt ducks. We deal with duck hunters, turkey hunters, dove hunting—just a general line outdoors—tackle and—.

What kind of hours do you keep?

Six a.m. 'til six p.m. in the winter, and six a.m. 'til seven p.m. in the summer, seven days a week.

So do you ever have time to get out on the water yourself? Do y’all switch up?

Oh, yeah. I went fishing yesterday. I caught speckled trout. I get to fish—I get off during the weekdays, and they work it during the weekdays, and they swap weekends and then I get off during—usually get out of here about ten o'clock on weekdays and get out and get to do what I want to four or five days during the week. But I open every morning pretty well.

And then you have obviously a lot of local customers, but when the—when it's high season out on the island and all these tourists come through do you have some good business from them?

That's when they're hunting and they're fishing. Our fishing is off but our hunting is up. Deer hunters go and buy chicken feed, dog food, archery equipment, and stuff like that kind of keeps that—plus our oystermen, we depend on them to keep us going in the winter, too. It's all pretty well—say ninety-five-percent is local trade [in]  December and January and February and [in] March, them wild kids get ready to start coming back.

——-

Well let's go back to when you were working on the bay and some of the other stuff you did. You said you were crabbing for a while and—.

Well, when me and my wife first got married, I crabbed and got a couple hundred crab pots, and we could catch 500, 600, 700, 800 pound of crabs. And I got off on a bad foot. What happened is the dealers—I was young, seventeen, eighteen years old, and the dealers already had their crabbers. When you get 600, 700, 800, 1,000 pounds of crabs a day. They looked out for their—their people that crabbed all year, and I was just a new starter. I done good but I didn't—so I went back to oystering in the fall. We played around that summer; we had crabbed a little.

——-

Did you ever cultivate any soft-shell crabs?

One season, one season.

RP: One season was enough of it.

——-

Let's go back to oystering. You got out of the business because it was going down. Now what do you think about the future of oystering and folks working on the bay?

I don't know where—there are probably going to be oysters as long as we're here living, but the pollution is what kills oysters and kills the—you get so much bacteria and they won't—see, the oyster lives on bacteria, but they won't let you process it. See, they—this time they said Red Tide is in them and they've had areas—part of the area, about a third of our bay is still closed from September second [this year], and then we had—it was two months [that] a third of it stayed closed. Three months later, the second third opened and then the other third they still say got Red Tide, and it's closed. Oystering, I believe there will always be oystering but—and there will be a demand for them, but I don't know if the workers is going to be there with the price. It's been a struggle ever since probably [nineteen] eighty-five.

RP: Right now one thing that the local people are facing is there's sort of a trend to unite laws all through the United States, and you keep hearing about a—a water temperature degree setting it, and if it's not a certain temperature, you can't produce oysters out of that water…because the bacteria is higher in the summer.

CP: They're talking about closing it like five to six months during the summer. Once the water reaches like seventy-degrees, seventy-two, then it will stay closed 'til it gets back to that in the winter.

RP: You know, and some years that could basically shut you down as much as six months.

CP: It's hard to work a job six—five to six months out of the year.

RP: You know and oystering right now already with everything that's going on it has sort of become a part-time job; there are still people doing it full-time but you really have to budget yourself and a lot of times like the—the last year, you haven't had a great year, you know you—you did without. You know some years you'll do real good, but as—if that happens it's going to force oystering more and more as a part-time job. You're going to have to have something else just regular, which in a sense the area has seen that and you know it's just always everybody is linked to some other branch of seafood to keep them going. Like my father, I mean he's—he's done a little bit of all of it and that's what it's taken in the years past to survive—is you do a little bit and then if that's down or you can't make it on that you swap to something else to get you by until you can go back to oystering or shrimping or whatever you do as your primary living.

CP: Well, our primary living was shrimping about nine months—eight months probably and oystering four months during the winter and that's what I was doing when I quit.

RP:  Now the sad thing about the area is people will swap from if they shrimp—swapping into oystering as a sideline; a lot of them now are having to swap to either construction or either to cleaning houses or something just tourist related or either something—a lot of people now have swapped to some sort of government job that will allow them some free time to oyster or shrimp on the side to make—make ends meet, and it's really—it's changing the way of life around here because you can't—it's harder to depend on the seafood industry 12 months out of the year. You know in years past you could do that but now it's becoming harder and harder because you know when they shut oystering down for nearly five months now in areas of the bay you know that puts a lot of pressure on floundering or either mullet fishing or shrimping. Well it just so happened the shrimping during that time, a lot of people don't have the means to do that; this year it put a heavy emphasis on people floundering on the sideline. Well there just ain't enough market you know. You have people who do that continually for a living that supplies the market and if you get you know 50-percent more people doing that there's just not enough market for it and you either have to sell your product lower which doesn't do you any good because then you can't meet your bills and other things, you know or either you have to find something else to do. Mullet—the same way; since the net ban it's—mullet has sort of changed in the area. The demand has sort of changed so now there is a limited supply for the mullet outlet and then when oystering is closed then you have extra people get into mullet fishing and that puts too much on the market, so then you have to find something else. You know where in years past pretty much everything maintained and stayed along and you could swap back and forth you know. If you had to depend on one thing for a while it was a short time and something else would open back up so you could turn around and go right back. Well it's becoming more and more that you can't do that; if they close it it's liable to be closed for three or four months, so you can't depend on any—any other of the seafood markets. You have to look outside of the industry to find something to keep you going.

CP: And, too, they pulled all of our crab permits. If you don't make a percentage of your income from crabbing they pulled their—pulled their license on them and all the crabbers, they is—either you just about have to crab for a living; you can't oyster part of the year and crab if you don't make that quota. And about three years ago they pulled all the crab licenses if you didn't make a standard—if a percentage of yours wasn't crab you couldn't keep your license; you'd lose it. So that eliminated this swapping season thing and that's the State of Florida. [Laughs]

RP: But that's—that actually has been the trend in a lot of the seafood. Every year another product is put on the restricted species, so you have to have a restricted species endorsement to do that—that process. So you know a lot of people that hasn't depended on that when you know if they depended on shrimping and now oystering becomes a restricted species, if you haven't showed where you've caught oysters in the last year then your license is invalid. You can still have the harvest license but you can't catch oysters or you can't catch mullet or you can't catch flounder.

If you fail to meet the quota one year, can that be renewed the next year, or it's just gone for good?

CP:  When you lose it it's gone. We'll probably never have another crab license. They was several who lost them because they didn't do enough—by me running this business I wasn't able to crab and keep mine up, so I lost it. Some of the crabbers that went out and got private jobs they lost theirs, too. So it's down to probably roughly ten crabbers in Franklin County or less.

So do y’all know many young people who are going out working the bay?

CP:  Well, we're trying to convince all the young people don't do this because of the hardship. We've got a few kids that quit school and fished.

RP: There's still a few people that do it. Most of them realize that the future in it is going to be hard. They can do it but it's going to be hard. Now ten or fifteen years ago, there was a lot of kids that was still getting into the industry. But since then, probably in the last fifteen years, fewer and fewer of the local people have really encouraged their kids to get into the seafood industry. Most adults that's in the area and has been at that time is trying to get their kids something else to do because it's just really become real hard to maintain year-round.

——-

RP:  The trend in the last few years—ten, fifteen years ago, seafood was the main industry. It brought more income into the area than anything.

CP:  At one time it was ninety-five percent of this county.

RP: But now you're seeing a strong surge in either construction work in which—or either something related to tourism, which construction sort of ties into it. Or either governmental jobs to the area. Other than that, we really are lacking for any good industry—any good clean industry in the area. You know and that's sad for the younger people that are here because they either have got to compete in that market, which is a limited market, or either they have to move away from here. Especially when you consider the taxes in the area and the land prices in the area.

CP:  I'd say in 1984 probably seventy-five to eighty percent of this conty’s income was seafood. Now it's probably twenty or maybe thirty—twenty-five to thirty-five-percent will be seafood related in fifteen years. Over the years, it's just been a slow—you see more and more—at one time we had 900 and some oystermen that bought licenses. Now we're down to a little over a hundred over a period of fifteen to twenty years…And some of us buy licenses that don't even fish. Me and him bought a commercial license ever since we've had this business. I mean we don't use them but we've got them.

——-

Well what would you want people to know about Eastpoint and the bay and this area?

RP: Probably the thing that stands out in my mind about the area is the people that live here. It's probably some of the best people that you'll find in the country.

CP: In the world.

RP:  They're hard-working people that just sort of want to live their own life, you know.

CP:  Be free.

RP: Be free, you know. And strangers that they meet, you know, they're friendly to them and don't mind sharing with them but it's—the area is changing. And people are having to adapt with it. And that's probably one of the greatest things about this area. That and, you know, it's just a beautiful place to live. You know, we're fortunate to live in this area that we see a lot of nature and a lot of the things on the bay that other people never will get the chance to live. Now you can go north and you can see mountains and rivers and streams, you know. There's a lot of different areas. Or you can see the desert. But I just—the diversity in this area as far as the land change and the water and the nature that you see is just—it's hard to imagine anywhere else that's as beautiful as this.

CP: We’re in Paradise. That's the reason so many people loves to come here. We can fish year-round and hunt during hunting season and saltwater fish and bay fish and freshwater fish and hike and trail through the woods and see the bears pretty well year-round and watch the deer. I mean, we got paradise here right at our fingertips, but so many times the local people get discredit[ted]. Me and you can go walking through town right now. We'd see a hundred people. A hundred people that will treat you just as nice as if they did know you…I mean they’re just nice people. Good people.

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